Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

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Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby Captain America » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:13 am

I talked with Robert a few days ago and he told me to take a look at a couple of kung fu web sites, saying that I might find them "interesting." And it was for the Captain...





Originally, there were five principle Southern kung fu systems. They were designated by the word gar following the founder's name. Gar means family and in this case stands for kung fu families.

The five family systems were originated strictly as fighting arts, used to battle the Ching dynasty rulers. Unlike Northern systems, which were older and had evolved during peaceful times when students could study their martial arts for years before reaching higher levels, the masters of the Southern systems had to train their student more quickly how to fight. As a result, hard power was taught first, followed by internal training. Stances were wider and lower, and Southern footwork less active than Northern, relying more on the practitioner's strength for defense.

CHOY(Toy)GAR- The system was founded by Choy Gau Yee and is a long and short arm style. (No relation to Choy-li-fut system which was created much later). The Choy system teaches mostly kicks, side punches, and circular long and short fists. However, it is mostly known for its combination or blending of Fut and Li Gar methods.

LI GAR- Founded by Li Yao San (also one of Choy-li-fut's originators), this seldom-taught system features a strong medium-range attacks. The Li system has a lot of slaps and poking techniques against vital points on the body, and is known for its rapid and baffling footwork called “rat steps”. However, it is mostly known for its heel palm work.

MOK GAR – Founded by Mok Ching Giu, who was famous in Canton for his powerful kicks, this system places emphasis on short-hand techniques and strong kicks. The Mok system is known for its precise blocking system and for its simultaneous block-strikes,and is also famous for its Chicken heart strike(3rd knuckle punch).

FUT GAR – Founded by Lau Soam Ngan, it is a middle length hand system, not often taught in present times. The Lau system consists of many open-hand techniques for blocking, slicing, chopping, and cutting techniques. However, it is mostly known for its Monk's hand work.


HUNG GAR – Founded by Hung Hei Gung, it uses external strength and dynamic tension exercises and is excellent for developing muscles and strong low stances. The Hung system is known for its power punching used out of a low horse, although it aims for a natural relaxed grace. However, it is mostly known for its long arm work.


With the exception of hung-gar, the Southern family styles are rarely seen today in their original forms. Most of the popular Southern systems, including choy-li-fut, wing chun and white crane, had their roots in the Shaolin temple martial system, or in other Northern styles.
There are many styles that originated from the Five Family fist systems but there are only a small piece of the whole complete system. Within the Five Family Fist system are also the extraordinary skills (Juer Chi). This includes several levels of iron palm as well as such skills as iron body / iron shirt, light body skills, remote skills (ling kong jing), and vital point striking (dim-mak). These are the very coveted and higher secret skills given to only an extremely select few.


and

The 5 Family Styles of Ng Yin Ga-Ng Ga Kin


Choi Ga

Uses medium range stances, for quicker transitions, and faster closing techniques

Li Ga

Unique blocking/parrying techniques with enhanced grabbing movements (Chin Na)

Mok Ga

Completed the system by adding stealth and shadow kicking techniques

Fut Ga - Lau Family

Open hand techniques including palming, slicing, and slapping movements

Hung Ga

Punching techniques using directness of power, and strength

This complete system incorporated Mental and Physical Training, Chi Kung (Energy Breathing Exercises), Traditional Kung Fu Philosophy, Acupuncture/Acupressure, and Herbal Medicine



Combine these two excerpts from two different websites, which are from students of Ark Wong, then look at a few seconds of this video starting at the 2:41 mark, and tell me that there is NO connection possible between the two as far as the "origin" of the name of San Soo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhL9QhoRtuM

Jimmy obviously knew Ark Wong... and there is some similarity in general "history" of the two styles... The temple being destroyed, Wong and Woo both being, in the common mythology perpetuated, born in Toisan in the Canton province etc. (See http://www.southern5.com/WongSifu.html )

Toi Li Ho Fut Hung and Toi Li Mok Fut Hung!!!.... (Choy and Tsoi and Toi are all only differences in Chinese dialect...) See the comprehensive article by San Soo Sifu about the name of our art here... http://www.americansansoo.net/Forum3/vi ... ?f=6&t=120 And just for extra amusement... notice that the Sifu notes a dialect variation of "Ho" to be be "HOK"!!! ergo... Toi Li Mok and Toi Li Hok"... go figure...

Combine the obvious speculation this generates with the fact that (per my conversation with Robert) Master Jack Sera cannot recall Jimmy relating ANY details about his supposed FORMAL training EVER to him (Jack), and maybe, just maybe... Toi Li Ho Fut Hung is as original in name of what Jimmy did (his San Soo) as were the names he endorsed for Frank Woolsey (like Numpi or Nam Pei, etc....) meaning he just made up/ "borrowed" some names... (Even Ron Gatewood has documented this... at least to a small degree... See the San Soo Journal. And I seem to remember Ron being chastised for being "heretical" when it came to some fact checking he did with respect to some topics San Soo. But the Captain actually thinks he was/is right about a lot of the stuff he caught flack for...)

PS
I did change the order of the family names from the original order in the two articles, to demonstrate the correlation to San Soo's supposed formal name.

PS to the PS...
This is just touching the surface of "heresy" that is out there about San Soo and who Jimmy really was... More on that may come later...

Make sure you are paying attention... There is no claim here about the San Soo Fighting System coming from Ark Wong. So there is no need to get defensive about that. But the name of our style, Toi Li Ho Fut Hung (Toi Ga, Li Ga, Ho Ga, Fut Ga, Hung Ga - or "Gar" instead of "Ga," if you prefer) is what I find interestingly in speculation here.

Remember that Jimmy said "Don't lie to your students." All well and good... but Jimmy also appears in an old martial arts article wherein his background education is listed as having gone to the University of Canton and majored in Physical Education. Give me a break. It was marketing. And "technically" he wasn't lying to his students... He only lied to everyone who read the article.

I would really like to read comments about these things from Master Gatewood. He is the only one who has published some "heretical" speculation about Jimmy on a small number of issues. This does not take away his tremendous respect and reverence for Jimmy H. Woo... I want to be clear about that... but some things don't mesh and he has said so.

(You there Ron? I'm not keen on arguing anymore. If you want to chime in on this, I'll give you all the space you want. Unedited. This is a serious offer, Sir.)

And I would love to read/hear "formal" opinions from Master Jack Sera (who loved Jimmy like a son does his father, and is to this day amazed at the fighting genius shown and the technique expertise taught by Jimmy H. Woo) as well... Robert maybe will try to do that (get information from Jack, that is). Maybe.

I said maybe. Please don't misquote the Captain about this. I'm trying to be extra clear here.

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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby RonG » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:27 pm

I would be happy to share what I know and have learned through the years, I also will not argue any longer, if someone does not believe what I post that is up to them. It concerns me that so much false information is being passed on as fact and that all that will be left is a bunch of made up stories. Next week I will turn 71 and I am running out of time, I fear since the information that we know has not come out since Jimmy's death that it never will. I died on the operating table a couple of years ago and no longer have time for any BS.

I knew Ark Wong (I made weapons for him also) he gave me a pair of real Butterfly swords to duplicate. Those are the ones you may have seen with the square tangs, I made some for Jimmy but the San Soo guys complained that they caused blisters so we went back to round.
I was a real idiot that I didn't discuss more history with him but we did discuss some things. He was the one who first told me that Jimmy's name was not Woo. He said they were cousins (I think real ones) but we must also know that the Chinese call others Uncle and Cousin when they are not blood related.

Like it or not, we are directly related to Choy Li Fut. To find Chen Si Mo (the son of Chen Siu Hung, Jimmy's teacher) was a Grand Master in Choy Li Fut has to tell us something.

There is much more to cover but this is a start. Jimmy always told me (at demonstrations when Ark was performing) "He do real forms, they good."
Since Jimmy never taught long forms, if I still taught, I would have no guilt teaching his long forms and telling the students where they came from.

Thanks
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby RonG » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:45 pm

I believe that Jimmy was a more experienced fighter than Ark Wong, Ark taught much more classical than Jimmy. Jimmy would tell about a time when he and Ark were talking outside of the Chinatown school. Something happened and a guy pushed Ark causing him to stumble back. Jimmy stepped in and with a strong look on his face (the one I saw as he explained could have caused a pack of elephants to stampede) he web palmed to the guys throat dropping him to the ground.
Jimmy was younger than Ark. Not to say anyone learned from each other (I don't know) but there was a connection with the Wongs because Chen Siu Hung sent Jimmy to their village for an extended time to teach Kung Fu. I don't know what village but Jimmy said he showed them mostly form as he did not want to share much San Soo.
If you look at the old (if it is still up) Ark Wong website you will see almost the same exact story as Jimmy told us except Ho/Ha is replaced by Mok.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby RonG » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:47 pm

I did not realize you were talking about our tapes, I watched last night, I had forgotten what was on each tape since I had made them years ago. I was amazed how much information is on the one tape but it is important to understand what he meant by what he said. I will break some of it down to see what I mean. You talked about him touching on the gates, all he meant is that he made the Wongs stick to basic horse stances for a long time showing square and side horses.
He also discussed how he did not have a dollar a year to go to a Kung Fu school so Grandmother said to go to an Uncle who studied as a child to teach him. This was his first instructor, not Chen Siu Hung.
He went over some training sounds but be careful here because he switched them to show how on some could make your attack stronger or weaker if used wrong, that is why you need to understand what he meant, there were some more things but that is all I can remember without watching it again.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby Captain America » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:42 pm

Just some more of the Captain’s speculation here…

The video shown here… from Master Gatewood’s seminar at South Bay San Soo (before my time at TMI) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEb0mmqjR6g shows form ( where the individual moves are more discreet and broken up movements, as opposed to the more “flowing forms” with windmills and more circularity like I was exposed to.

Based on comments reported to me by Robert (of some of what Jack remembers), such as the one in an above post, wherein Jack states that he cannot remember Jimmy ever telling him about extensive FORMAL training in China… and then looking at how the forms changed… it is not unreasonable to the Captain to see this change as evidence that Jack’s reporting is accurate.

When the forms became more “flowing” as in these demo tapes of both Jimmy ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFU7p2S0wvU at the 0:50 mark) and Frank ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeL3p8R2Lc at the 1:35 mark ) (the two doing forms look a lot alike, though Jimmy of course does it better…) there is still a bit of evolution necessary to get to what is the current style of forms that San Soo has today.

For the reader’s consideration: How does one who is one of the favorites of Chen Hung and personally taught San Soo by him for over a decade NOT already have the form, style, and structure of San Soo forms down pat??? Why was there a need by Jimmy to change what was proven to be effective over many generations from the Kwan Yin temple San Soo. I find it ludicrous that San Soo fighting technique was perfected in the temple, but forms were not?!?!?!

Or... Maybe there wasn’t tons of formal training for Jimmy in China.

More of Jack’s comments (again, all second hand to me from Robert – so blame Robert) about Jimmy talking to him (Jack) about his aunt in Hong Kong, but not about some 320 pound giant of an uncle in the Canton Province in Taishan City, seem to be further evidence of a lack of extensive formal training.

Jimmy was a superb fighter, loved to fight, and he was known as such in China Town, Los Angeles and not originally as Sifu. Robert, back in the days of TMI, called Jimmy’s style “Thug San Soo”… a glorious name if you think about the source of all who called Jimmy a thug and not a “true” martial “artist” (those others being inferior instructors and cops who knew him).

And also “genius” in the sense that Jimmy was able to take his hodgepodge of training and be the superb and highly techniqued fighter he was. (Though when I watch the real old tapes of Jimmy vs. the older Jimmy, his technique in the later years (for example the China town demos) is definitely superior to his younger self.)

But anyway, back to the primary questions I’m posing… Why did the forms change so, so, so much?

And why, after years of talking with Jimmy, did he not talk to Jack about his supposed extensive formal training. Or an uncle???



Heresy, I tells ya…. Heresy!
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby RonG » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:48 pm

You are asking for a book but here are a couple of things, when you say Chen Hung, that if the founder of Choy Li Fut but Chen Siu Hung is the adopted son of Chen Hung. I contacted Chen Si Mo (Chen Siu Hungs' son) when he was still alive and he said Jimmy came to the school about six years. Jimmy said in tape 4 that when someone asks you what you study, "tell him Tsoi (Choy) Li Ho Fut or tell him Tsoi Li Fut". Opposite from what most people think I believe that "we are cousins" means that Jimmy glossed over classical Choy Li Fut and gave us San Soo which does not mean an Art but full combat.
Jimmy learned to appreciate forms as he matured but when I first started I asked him, "Ark Wong teaches form are we going to learn form"? He looked at me and said (this was the young Jimmy) "forms are s__t", I sure was not going to argue.
Chen Si Mo taught beautiful forms so our Art has long beautiful forms, Jimmy chose not to teach them.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby Captain America » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:29 am

I contacted Chen Si Mo (Chen Siu Hungs' son) when he was still alive and he said Jimmy came to the school about six years.



What Ron reports and what Jack believes based on his conversations with Jimmy with respect to a lack of extensive formal training by Jimmy... actually seem to mesh.

Six years?? That's it?? Only six years!!!

Well Captain, six years sounds like a lot to me, you may be thinking.

If so, then consider the following... This wasn't a monastery where Jimmy lived (assuming the story about Uncle Hung and all that stuff is a description of reality...) so training was not a six day a week, ten hours a day schedule. Uncle Hung was, according to legend, the areas "Godfather." He was supposedly running a good size area of the Canton province. Probably didn't have a lot of time to spend teaching Jimmy. A few hours per week maybe.

Jimmy, according to Ron, thought forms training was a total waste of time (see above post). Jimmy also didn't like going to school. Jimmy liked doing what Jimmy liked doing. So I doubt seriously that he spent a lot of time in a kwoon. Assuming that he liked/loved to fight, he must have spent a lot of time being, in a manner of speaking, a juvenile delinquent.

Six years of coming to the school... when he darn well felt like it.

Many versions of the myth of Jimmy Woo have him coming to the USA at age 19 to 21. If he was nineteen years old, that means his "six years" of formal "studio" training began at age 13. That's a real mature age. And the whole six years he thought that forms were BS. What's the odds of the school he supposedly went to for six years, did not do forms. This was China. Not El Monte in the 1960s. So how many days per week did he play hookey from class when he could go out and raise a little Cain and beat up someone. He was a heck of a fighter. He had a lot of experience. But that ain't the same as "FORMAL" training. And three of those six years could have been at ages 13, 14, and 15 years old. Pretty young to become mature in any fighting system.

Even if he came to the USA at 21 years old, he was still very, very young.

Jimmy said, as an old man, that when he was young, he lost his temper often. That if he had grown up decades later, he would have probably been shot to death, and that guns were very rare when and where he grew up... fortunately for him. Choi Li Fut training in a school for an extensive period of time for a boy, to very young man, who liked to fight and was uneducated (because he didn't like school, by his own admission) and preferred to do what he wanted to do and became a problem for his family (remember that much of the myth of Jimmy Woo has him in trouble with the law numerous times) makes the likelihood of regulary attending formal kwoon training minimally likely to this observer. And his attitude that "I can kick everyone's ass, so why do I have to go to a stupid class when I clearly don't need it to be a good fighter. And besides, forms suck eggs!" Heck, according to legend, he was sent out as a teenager to teach some basic San Soo to folks by his Uncle... Obviously he wasn't in the studio learning during those times.
And AGAIN, he wouldn't be considered a great student (I said student, not fighter) if he didn't do forms.

And with respect to forms... Even if one argues Jimmy DID a lot of forms training, but just didn't like it... then why, as I ask in an above post, did he change the whole style and appearance of the forms he taught. The way forms should be done seem to me to have been settled way, way, way before Jimmy was even born, with all the years of truly formal training that the monks supposedly received in the temple that burned down! (And for what it is worth, did you ever notice that the monastery that Kwai Chang Caine (David Carradine's character in the old Kung Fu TV series, was also burned down.... or that Ark Wong's Kung Fu came from a monastery that ALSO burned down... Sounds like a common theme and history to give to round eye students, if you ask me!

Anyway, six years for a teenager is NOT enough to be considered having matured in the Art of San Soo. Assuming Jimmy was even a dedicated student, which I seriously, seriously doubt he was. He was a teenager, who like to fight and raise Cain.

He did NOT have a lot of FORMAL training.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby RonG » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:28 pm

I discussed this with Jack awhile back and we did agree that Jimmy did not know as much formal training as we thought when we first started but we also agreed that he learned/created a very deep knowledge of martial arts after arriving here, especially after he opened his school. To back this up, I talked to Clyde Coad a week ago, he knew Jimmy when he worked in the market before he opened the school. Clydes' mother had diabetes and Jimmy would save special produce for her. Jimmy wanted to teach him and told him to come see him when he was 17. When Clyde started (after the school opened, he did not start untill it was open awhile) he asked Jimmy how much he would learn. Jimmy showed him the printed Aikido's and 22 Ju Jitsu's and said "when you learn this, that's it" (Which also included the rest of the basic 45, then called Ju Jitsu's).
Clyde has a very good memory, he does not BS, if he tells you something, believe it.
Jack also said that he believes that Jimmy was a genius because he could extend his knowledge to the depths that he did. I also feel this way because I have watched him figure out solutions to combat situations, he was truly a genius of body mechanics.
I believe as he matured his understanding and appreciation of forms grew and he believed in their value. I can't tell you how many times my idea's changed as I learned especially from the time I was a brown belt, when I thought I knew everything. heh heh
Don't think that by discussing these things that it in any way takes anything away from Jimmy's ability, he was a great fighter.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby Captain America » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:40 pm

Don't think that by discussing these things that it in any way takes anything away from Jimmy's ability, he was a great fighter.


Master Gatewood, not even for a split second would I think that. As you just mentioned, and as Jack told Robert, the lack of FORMAL training before Jimmy came to the USA, truly ELEVATES HIS STATURE as a "fighting genius" ( a whole lot) because of his combat abilities and his keen understanding of fighting principles and mechanics... BECAUSE of his limited formal training time.
He figured out so much himself, and built so much on what training he did have. We wouldn't be here today proudly waving the San Soo banner, otherwise.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby bigpappa » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:15 pm

The funny thing is I found this forum because I was trying to research some nagging suspicions I've had over the years about the style, its history, and Ark Wong and his style as well. Hours spent watching videos on Youtube and perusing websites had already led me to my own conclusions (but didn't dare to wisper to my instructor), but now I see that perhaps my suspicions were correct after all.

Wow, this is very, very informative stuff you have all posted.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby unstpabl1 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:43 pm

The thing about teaching is that by doing it your understanding of the subject deepens and your perspective keeps evolving. As you grow; the art grows. As you allow yourself to stop growing the value weakens and can become obsolete.

Perspective is a funny thing to a man who is open minded for outsiders to view because it seems contradictory. What he said 5 years ago may have evolved so much that he must invalidate it.

Maybe Jimmy's teaching of Wong, the Silat master, and others; or even through the books, if they exist were as much a learning experience for him as the student or more.

In the end, IMO, FWIW, is that if we learn something from someone it ends up being a small piece of the puzzle for us to learn to apply in an ever changing environment.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby RonG » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:55 pm

The older I get the more understanding I learn, things I believed have changed, some have deeper meanings, some no longer are valid but there is still more to learn. Many stop learning as they think they possess the holy grail but they don't, they seem satisfied.
I read the things I have written in the past that I would not write today (not a lot). I supported what I was told which I found may have been stories to mask the actual facts.
All in all what I have learned has done me well, I am thankful for what I have been taught.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby unstpabl1 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:42 am

People don't know what they don't know BUT the act like they know it all ;o) In most cases people just want to hear they're right or that they're wonderful :D

Intelligent people question everything, even themselves. Every guru will let us down at some point because they're human being with agendas and flaws but it doesn't necessarily diminsh the concepts that we may have learned thru them

hope your doing well Ron et al
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby RonG » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:44 pm

I believe Jimmy went through the same process as he aged he recognized that the Choy Li Fut striking that he learned (which was similar to "Old San Soo) had to move back to start or cocked position, travel further and took extra time. From the day he changed he started to say "punch from wherever you are, it is faster". Of course if you do that, you must learn to add more snap (fa jing) to the shorter punches. Some could not or would not except this so the divide started, I am not saying that one is better because I was trained in both, the " New" is faster.
On a side note, I have been banned from the IKFSSA board for truth telling but my Yahoo address will remain the same, it is punitive because JP must read and post each message so he controls all posts. I can't read any messages, he puts out a rant and then blocks anything further from me. So I would like to answer one thing about "my back stabbing him", anything I have told others, I have told him. I admit I have told others to be careful about sending him money. It is just as well as one tires of the plans that never happen, I can not remember him discussing actual tactics, principals, real history, just drama.
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Re: Toi Li MOK Fut Hung, Toi Li HO Fut Hung

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:30 pm

David Lorenson wrote:What is the evidence that he did not hold a degree? It was typical, even in that era for the Chinese to enter school at a younger age.



Sam Silva wrote:"Fight to Live" ... The Legacy of Jimmy H. Woo

Written by Master Sam Silva (copyright 1982)

"You can take my life, but not my confidence."--- Jimmy H. Woo

Excerpt...

Lots of time I'd get arrested for fighting and taken to jail. My family was so powerful, so influential, that I was never kept there. The police would take me in the front door and walk me directly out the back. For all the wildness I got in, and all the confidence I had, I was rebellious to my father. I refused to go to school and things like that. In the end, my father sent me to the United States to get rid of me. Some of my family was living in the Chinatown section of Los Angeles and that's how I settled here.
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
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